1. Heber Allred
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  3. Monday, 25 May 2020
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A quick update:
We just finished the design for our new USB only PCB. We have PCB prototypes in production right now, and we will hopefully have them in a few weeks. I will post pictures when they arrive.

Why USB only PCB (which we now call KeyMouse PCB 2.0)?
1. Dealing with wireless & batteries has been the primary cause of support problems for KeyMouse. For a single device it's not too big of a deal, but with a split keyboard keeping both sides in sync with wireless/USB combo is problematic. Just overall too many issues caused by it.
2. Some computer USB ports could not put out enough power for 2 devices + charging the batteries. Charging the batteries while using KeyMouse would put extra power load on the USB port. This would cause sporatic device disconnects where some users had to even remove batteries to get KeyMouse to work.
3. Due to a complex business arrangement (which I will not get into here because it evolved over time), the firmware for our KeyMouse PCB 1.4 is sub-contracted and updates/bug fixes are not fully in our control. There have been some debounce issues we've been trying to get resolved for years, and still don't have a solution. We have full control of the firmware on our new KeyMouse PCB 2.0, which has been in development in the background for quite a while now. It will have more features, more layers, and better macros, etc. Firmware is progressing nicely. We still need to update the desktop software to write layers to it directly.
4. Our new PCB is a Master/Slave setup, so the computer will see 1 device instead of 2. You will still chain the devices similar to when using existing KeyMouse devices (1 cable to computer, and 1 cable between). On existing KeyMouse devices the left/right hand do not communicate to each other through the cable...it's actually a USB Hub to relay the signal to the computer. The new PCB has a communication protocol between left/right hands which will help a lot for reliability and giving us a lot more options. This will simplify a lot of issues particularly on Mac, where it does not recognize modifier keys such as Shift/Ctrl/Alt/Cmd from "other" keyboards (you can't press Shift on left keyboard + Y on right keyboard to get a capital Y). We worked around this by having modifier keys be sent from both left/right hands any time a key was pressed, which works pretty good, but creates other negative side effects. New system will be a lot better. There will still be mouse in both left/right hands which we still can control independently for speed, DPI, etc., but computer will just see 1 device.

Why did we pause production?
1. We ran out of PCB's and hit a point that we wanted to re-evaluate everything. Our primary background is software, and running a software company + hardware company was becoming overwhelming. I've developed software for 25+ years, and trust me, it's a cakewalk compared to hardware. We built KeyMouse because we LOVE to use it ourselves and we're very glad for all your support of the product. The pause of several months has given us some time to evaluate how to move forward better to still offer KeyMouse. Solving some of the issues above with the new PCB will help cut down on time needed for supporting devices. We have also raised the price which will help make the business more self-sustainable. We assemble and test KeyMouse by hand.
2. We had re-designed our Cherry PCB modules with a brand new punch down system for much cleaner wiring inside the devices (enough room for backlight wires) But...we had not tested it fully yet in the field. We just need more time to test this and make sure it's going to be the correct path forward.

What is the path forward for KeyMouse?
1. We are currently waiting for our new KeyMouse PCB 2.0 prototypes to arrive.
2. We will need to make updates to our 3D models to match the new PCB (this part should go pretty quick).
3. We need to update our desktop software to write key layouts to the new PCB.
4. We plan to begin offering devices again once we have had enough time to test and ensure the device is stable with our new PCB and our new punchdown system on the switches - assuming they work smoothly.
5. Long term we hope our modular KeyMouse platform can be used for creating many types of devices - programming, gaming, CAD, 3D modeling, and many more industries. There are many types of devices that could be built with our core components, and we would love for people to use them to create their own input device ideas.
6. We may do some license deals in manufacturing moving forward to free up our time to work more in our area of specialty.

Side note: to cut down on support we will no longer be supporting Chair Mounting for KeyMouse. There are too many types of chairs with various shapes and orientations of the armrests. We will give access to the 3D models of our chair mounting parts, which you can modify and use for 3D printing your own custom parts to mount KeyMouse devices. We actually really like chair mounting, but cannot support all the configurations at this time. Maybe in the future.

Thank you all for your support of KeyMouse. :)
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Awesome news. Looking forward to it.
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yes. Absolutely.

i have my money, and i am ready to throw down.
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Glad the KeyMouse will be available again but disappointed that the ChairTrack will be discontinued. Will the ChairTrack 3D printing designs be for the base that can be exchanged from the Track model if I were to purchase one of those, or would I need to print the entire enclosure?

Given that the ChairTrack already comes with cut out fillers for desktop use, it would seem easier to offer the ChairTrack (with cut out fillers) instead of Track and then let the community create custom "chair interfaces" which would fit in that aperture for mounting, or simply leave the cut out fillers in to use at a desk.
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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@Jon just to clarify, we will still offer KeyMouse ChairTrack, but users will be responsible to figure out their own mounting. We will provide the 3D print files for the mounting brackets we have designed, but it's too time consuming for us to try to recommend all the parts and pieces people will need to mount on so many types of chairs.
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That's great news.
Except the price.
Heber Allred Any idea in what range the final price for KeyMouse PCB 2.0 will be?

Hope it will go well!

P.S.: Thank you for the update! Appreciate it!
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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@Stepan The price is already raised on the pricing page to be the price we expect to have it at.
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I game with a Mouse that overtime hurts my finger. When i wanted to get this i didnt have the money. I do now and now it is out of stock. But i see a new design coming out and will wait for that. Just hope it comes out before end of June
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@Jon just to clarify, we will still offer KeyMouse ChairTrack, but users will be responsible to figure out their own mounting. We will provide the 3D print files for the mounting brackets we have designed, but it's too time consuming for us to try to recommend all the parts and pieces people will need to mount on so many types of chairs.


Wonderful! Thanks for clarifying!
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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Update: our initial 10 PCBs for testing got built, but there was a conversion issue from Imperial/Metric for some of the component sizes. Re-building. Will let you know when our sample PCBs are ready.
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Damn imperials!

Oh, wait, I'm American.... So I'm the jerk....

Sorry everyone!
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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We use all Metric for our KeyMouse 3D models, and we have really enjoyed it that way. The PCB designer we used drew the new PCB in Imperial (woops). Once we have the PCB and convert all the dimensions to Metric, we'll be back on track. We will use Metric as our main measurement system.
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Can you try and keep us posted at least twice a week on progress and when product will be available to purchase
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Hi Heber,
Is it part of the “grand vision” for people who have the older 1.4 PCBs to be able to swap them with the new 2.0 version?
I guess that if - as you mentioned - you need to update the 3D models, this might be problematic?
If other than that it’s just a matter of swapping one for the other, well, I have a Dremel, and I’m not afraid to use it :D
It’s just that I really love the KeyMouse (track), but you know the situation on MacOS...
Which raises another important point - given that the new design “side-steppes” current intrinsic problems, dose that mean that the 1.4 version will not be supported?
At any rate - I hope that things will go smoothly for you.
This product is great, and it deserves to succeed!
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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Hi Alon, we're not sure how well swapping the PCB 1.4 for 2.0 will work from the housing standpoint. I'm guessing with enough dremel work, and superglue (LOL JK) you might be able to get it to work. The new PCB is definitely smaller. We'll post photos once we have them. Hmmm...maybe we could even build a 3D printed "adapter" that can help mounting. We'll see how this goes. Everything is waiting for the new PCB, which is in manufacturing now (design issues were corrected a few days ago so production could proceed).
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Hi Heber,
Is it part of the “grand vision” for people who have the older 1.4 PCBs to be able to swap them with the new 2.0 version?
I guess that if - as you mentioned - you need to update the 3D models, this might be problematic?
If other than that it’s just a matter of swapping one for the other, well, I have a Dremel, and I’m not afraid to use it :D
It’s just that I really love the KeyMouse (track), but you know the situation on MacOS...
Which raises another important point - given that the new design “side-steppes” current intrinsic problems, dose that mean that the 1.4 version will not be supported?
At any rate - I hope that things will go smoothly for you.
This product is great, and it deserves to succeed!


Hello Alon,
I couldn't PM you because you don't have an account so I'm just gonna write here. Let me know if you want to sell the KeyMouse Track you have to switch to the new PCB when it comes out. I'm on Windows and do enjoy using Bluetooth on my KeyMouse NonTrack, so I might be interested in purchasing the one you have.

Radek
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I am sure several of us are interested in buying the original Keymouse Track. Maybe eBay it if you're looking to sell.
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Nick & Radoslaw:
This is quite inappropriate...
Please don’t spam this thread.

And by the way, if you’d read what I wrote, you’d see that I’m looking to MOD my device.
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Ok, boomer.

Good luck.
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Heber,

Would opening up pre-orders help you guys judge demand here / help fund the parts orders? If pre-orders for v2 opened up I'd place an order.
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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Hi Kevin. Thank you for offering, but we are holding off on preorders until we have tried and proven the new PCB and our new punchdown system for the keys. I think the main thing is we need to get the new parts and verify that they all work smoothly. We should have the new PCB samples in a few weeks if all goes well. We had to go back and forth with the manufacturer the past week tweaking the PCB design. Hopefully it's all set now. Actually, there will be 2 separate KeyMouse PCB's moving forward. One with mouse sensor built onto main PCB (for products like KeyMouse Alpha & gaming mice, etc.), and another with mouse sensor on separate PCB for products like KeyMouse Track (so the mouse sensor PCB can be mounted by the trackball independently of the main KeyMouse PCB). The current PCB we are getting is the one with mouse sensor built on. After we get that and verify it's working smoothly we will build the other one with mouse sensor on separate PCB (but that should go quickly...just removing the mouse sensor and putting pins in it's place).
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No worries, whenever it's helpful for you guys I'll place an order.
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Great news! I actually only used the Bluetooth on my set a couple of times, when they were new. It didn't work very smoothly, and I had no real reason for it, I haven't even had the batteries in it (which apparently might have saved me a headache...).

I have been toying with creating a keymouse "clone", for myself, using a Teensy (Arduino-like micro-controller), simplifying it similar to how you are now. I am a programmer and liked the idea of coding it myself anyway. I may not need to now make it now though (:
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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We will have full control of the firmware on this new PCB. It will be much better with the exception of not having Bluetooth and wireless. :)
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I'm super happy that you guys made the decision to return to production.

I do prefer to have Bluetooth in mine, so I'm hoping that the feature will return in the future, and to help that happen (and as spares) I'm going to buy both the KeyMouse and KeyTrack in the non-bluetooth versions. Since everyone will have to use cables, maybe offering something like the photon wires (https://photonwire.com/photogallery) for an additional price would be a nice idea.
While I do enjoy Bluetooth, I'd still prefer to use the wired KeyMouse connected with a steel cable around my wrists that electrocutes me once in a while than to go back to a normal qwerty, so BT is nice to have but definitely not a deal-breaker.

Another small suggestion is a bigger mousepad, I bought the current one and the surface is perfect, but it's far to small for me. I use a 100cmx50cm one now with a far worse surface but still works better for me.

Can't wait for the first units to be ready, keep up the good work guys.
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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First 10 PCB prototypes are assembled and should be shipping today. We're looking forward to receiving them and testing them out. Attached are some photos. We went with Black for the PCB color for now, and seems good. This has 12,000 DPI mouse sensor built on, so has lots of potential for additional devices in gaming and CAD as well. This PCB shown will be for KeyMouse Alpha, ComfyMouse, and similar "mouse" type devices. We have a 2nd variation of the PCB which we call the "B" version (2.0B, and so on) which will have the mouse sensor on a separate PCB for KeyMouse Track and other trackball type devices. This new PCB will be joystick capable (not in use yet), and could be used for gaming controllers, etc. Once we receive these PCB's we will ensure everything is working and build the "B" version of our PCBs, which should go very fast since it's almost identical. It just has pins across the bottom instead of the mouse sensor, and the mouse sensor connects using a cable (similar to KeyMouse 1.4 PCBs). Having this serial connection between master/slave devices will give lots of options for keyboards built on KeyMouse 2.0 PCB interacting with a ComfyMouse and other mouse devices. :)

Thanks for all your patience and support helping us make KeyMouse a reality. Anxiously waiting for the PCBs now so we can test everything.
Attachments (2)
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Looks good but when will you be selling them on your Website?
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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@Russell All depends on how well the testing goes with the PCB. We need to make sure it all works well, then we will place a larger order. I'm guessing another month if all goes well.
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I have a request for when you update the design. PLEASE, adjust so that replacement of the mouse buttons doesn't strip out the screw holes (since i love this thing to death, and wear them out (my own fault) as often as possible lol)

This could be done in several ways.
1) press in metal threaded nut or stud
2) still plastic, but hole the button in with something that spans the screws, like an elastic material, or a "flag" of some sort so we dont have to put the screws in and out as often.

Honestly, I'll even be happy if the mouse button is the same switch as the letter keys, as long as i get to keep using this key-mouse that i am hopelessly addicted to.

Also, happily offer to be a beta tester. More than willing to buy a beta setup just so i do not have to worry about going without my key-mouse.

One point for you on wireless.. I don't use it, EVER. I do like you did on my chair with the wire going under the chair, and i just have a long wire to a usb extension mounted under my desk so it pops out if my dog is a jerk because i hate the concept of my battery being dead and having to use "not a key-mouse:". I'll be 100% happy with however you set this up if i can plug it in and always have my happy key-mouse.

if there is anything i can do to help ensure that i will be able to continue to use my favorite piece of computer hardware for the foreseeable future let me know.
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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First 10 PCBs are in hand :)
Currently writing boot loaders and firmware to the chips for testing. Will let you know once we have something more to share.
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Being a purely software person who joined a small hardware & software company, I have felt your pains.

I truly hope you manage to get this off the ground once again and I will no doubt join the rest of your happy users.

I think your decision to drop the chair mounts was the right one. Lack of wireless makes it a slightly harder sell, but realistically, I think your audience will not mind spending 30 seconds routing a cable. I don't know what communications were previously used, but being wired actually gives you leverage for workspaces that do not allow wireless devices. I would think twice before going for modularity in fear of treading waters too deep, and of too little use.

I'm excited to see what you'll manage with the new software (especially the potential for high resolution scrolling). It will also be fantastic if configuration and flashing can be cross-platform from the get-go.

Take your time, keep it (as) simple (as possible). Good luck; we'll be refreshing our browsers.
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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FYI, we are currently debugging some issues with downloading firmware to the new PCBs (appears to need timing tuned, etc.). One of the key people helping us on firmware will be unavailable for a few weeks, so it will take a little longer to verify the PCB than initially planned. We'll let you know when we have more info.
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I'd like to join in the request to make the new PCB's compatible with older devices. An adapter would be an ideal solution. You can sell it separately and/or provide 3D printing plans for old users who'd like to update their devices.
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So keymouse 127 track will be available soon! :D
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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We're currently diagnosing some voltage issues on the PCB. For some reason when writing firmware to the PCB (through the boot loader) it's occasionally failing unless on a powered USB hub. We want to fix this before going to production. We're still getting to the bottom of it. Thanks for your patience. Also, the engineers helping on this are sub-contracted so juggling these updates between their other projects.
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Piss poor management. You could of still sell other mouse until this one was done. You also said this would be done back in June, then it was July. Now August. I won’t buy from this company now and I recommend other don’t either.
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Piss poor management. You could of still sell other mouse until this one was done.


Someone has reading comprehension issues, it appears.
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Please stop making yourself look foolish.. Your repeated statement here makes it clear that you know nothing about building a product what so ever. I'm also quite sure that if they sold you the earlier product (which if you read the thread, they cannot as they dont have any more pcb's) you'd crap-post that they wouldn't upgrade you for free. I'd side with you if you have one and are addicted to it (like me and others) and they refused to sell you more mouse switches, but that is in no way the case, what IS the case, is that they are doing their best though lots of difficulties to release a quality product.

To keymouse management: Thank you for continuing the line of the keymouse track that I'm so addicted to.
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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Thanks for your support. We'll get there...just taking us longer than we expected. We'll let you know when we have more info.
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Thanks for the update Heber.
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Piss poor management. You could of still sell other mouse until this one was done. You also said this would be done back in June, then it was July. Now August. I won’t buy from this company now and I recommend other don’t either.


I use this company's products every day.

Their service has been responsive and high quality.

Their products are unique and well designed.

You, on the other hand, can't even write a sentence that makes sense.

Maybe take a break from your anger issues for a while, and come back when you're ready to treat your fellow humans with respect.
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How is it progressing Heber?

I'm looking forward to supplementing my pair of V1 Alpha's with a pair of KeyMouse ChairTrack's for a mobile vehicle based work station project :)

Historically it was possible to mix and match KeyMouse products, say a right handed Alpha and left handed Track. Will it possible to do this across PCB versions, say between a V1 Alpha and a V2 Track or vice versa?
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Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
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Hi Kris,
We're about to make another small batch of PCBs to test some hardware "bug fixes". After a bunch of testing, we believe the "voltage issue" above is actually an impedence issue, not voltage related (but we won't know for sure until we order another batch of PCBs). The holdup right now is that before we make this next batch, we need to verify some of the other parts of the PCB such as backlight and detecting whether power is coming in on USB or Serial for sake of allowing the device to auto-detect whether to boot as master/slave based on source of power. The engineer helping us with the firmware to verify this has been maxed out at his current location of work and hasn't had time to break and help us finish verifying this by firmware updates. After we can verify hardware is good to go, we'll order our first batch of PCBs and start building KeyMouse again.
It may be possible to use a V1 left hand and V2 right hand, but I don't think it would be "seamless". The firmware on the new device is a re-write from scratch and formats the data completely different for the key layouts. We'll know more after we can get the new PCB and test further.
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Thanks for the update. A good product is always preferable to a rush job in my view, and I know from my own (far more trivial) projects that hardware is much more difficult to do in practice than it is in theory, despite what the theory suggests! :)
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I'm also willing to buy when you get this figured out. I would like to buy a track and an alpha. Please open up pre-orders and I'll put my money down.

Regards
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Sorry to interrupt the flow of love coming your way, but the removal of the Bluetooth radio just lost you a potential customer. While I sympathize with the headaches it may have caused you, it very much is the defining feature of your product in my eyes. As far as I know you were selling the only split wireless programmable mechanical keyboard (with pointing device) on the market. Remove any of these features and you no longer have an unique proposition. If I understand correctly what the PCB 2.0 will be capable of you'll be competing with models like the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and the Mitosis. On that note you might want to update your "why is KeyMouse $499" (sic.) article because the "unique feature set" argument hasn't much ground now.

I really hope that you'll come back to making Bluetooth keyboards in the future, because there's nothing to fill the void left by the wireless KeyMouse at the moment. In the meantime, I wish you great success in your current endeavors.
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Very good news and thanks lots for the update, can't wait. :)
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[quote...If I understand correctly what the PCB 2.0 will be capable of you'll be competing with models like the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard and the Mitosis. On that note you might want to update your "why is KeyMouse $499" (sic.) article because the "unique feature set" argument hasn't much ground now.

I don't get it. Neither of those keyboards, although cool, have the "unique proposition" that they are also a mouse?

Not sure if I'm stating the obvious, but the killer feature, I believe, is not having to move your hand to a mouse. You might not be aware of just how much this improves mundane tasks like browsing and word processing.

I would actually propose that the closest "competitor" is VIM. VIM is a dedicated text editor dedicated to solving this exact problem by using keyboards commands to navigate, which I used for a loong time for that exact reason, and this is *definitely* faster, by a long shot.

But where this feature really shines is form filling -- such as excel, PDF's etc, or editing -- when you have a completed document that you are jumping around and editing. It also provides a significant speed advantage in Adobe products (Acrobat, Illustrator) because they rely so heavily on keyboard shortcuts (that can't be reassigned, sigh).

The Keymouse solves this problem brilliantly. It hasn't caught on, however, because (1) are we slightly past the age of text entry except in more professional or creative settings? (2) It lacks that "sexiness" factor.
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  3. # 47
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both keyboards being Bluetooth is a PITA, because of syncing issues and such. I suspect that if the Bluetooth was just for one keyboard to the one keymouse to the computer, and the two keymouse were wired it'd be easy. But that would only be good with the keymouse track.. Either way, i've ALWAYS had my track connected via wire (while attached to my chair) because i'm addicted to using it, and if i were to forget to plug in in to charge, then i'd have to use a normal keyboard again <puke>.

Even though you say that this gets rid of you as a potential customer, i suggest you think twice if you were considering the track. Even with me, who HATED trackballs, LOVE the keymouse track when attached to my chair (used some brackets and hose clamps, works amazing). Now i couldn't live without it, and after i had that scare where keys were getting stuck, even ones i didn't press (windows update caused it and eventually one fixed it) i'll be buying one of the new generation to have just in case mine does eventually die. Thats how good it is (once you get used to using it), that you'll do pretty much anything to continue to use them.. The design is so amazing, really, the only thing i'd change is use a keyboard button for the mouse button, because with my job i burn out the mouse buttons eventually.. That said, they send you several extras and it's just a few screws to change.
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  3. # 48
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There are plenty of reasons why KeyMouse hasn't "caught on":

  • it's only available from this web site
  • it requires some changes to how people work
  • it costs money ... a fair bit of money
  • it has a limited set of supported environments and some complexity in its installation and configuration


That said, it is a brilliantly good product ... just an expensive one with a few sharp edges.
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  3. # 49
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There are plenty of reasons why KeyMouse hasn't "caught on":

  • it's only available from this web site
  • it requires some changes to how people work
  • it costs money ... a fair bit of money
  • it has a limited set of supported environments and some complexity in its installation and configuration


That said, it is a brilliantly good product ... just an expensive one with a few sharp edges.


Thanks for, like, expanding my mind, man, and pointing out my use of the technical jargon or inappropriate informalism "caught on". So I guess what is needed is, more websites, less changes to how people work (?), less cost, and ... more supported environments (I'm sure apple users will *love* this product, lol).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 50
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
1) yes
2) well, re-training, but yeah it takes effort
3) yes
4) works on all windows machines at least, and installing the driver and plugging it in wasn't terribly complex. the default setup works great out of the box


Keep in mind, i have the keymouse track so i can't speak for the mouse version


That said, I'd add one other thing, which i think is the majority of the problem for these types of things

Keymouse doesn't add something, yes it's a vastly superior way of keyboarding and mousing (not talking about games here), but unlike a bigger harddrive, faster video card or proc. It's just another keyboard to most people. To be honest, the only reason i considered it was that i needed something for the beginnings of carpel tunnel, and all that stuff is expensive, most of it needs far more re-training than this, and most of them seem stupid to me. When i was forced to look for an ergo keyboard and mouse, getting both at once made the price reasonable (ergo keyboards are smallish markets so they have to recoup all the R&D costs at a faster rate). Also, when needing an ergo setup, keymouse track has some really stand out features (put Bluetooth aside, since i don't care about the wireless stuff).

There is another advantage, ergo wise, so keymouse that the others don't have. Once connected to my chair, all mu shoulder pains went away (i thought that ws form how i slept) and now i could raise my monitors on a totally different stand, and lean my chair back.. I might even buy a zero gravity chair at some point, as this is perfect for it. A month ago i went to a hotel for a business trip, and since i drove, took my keymouse. Was able to lay on the bed (they decided remote last moment) and have the keymouse at the side. Working in bed, now that was an experience, and it felt natural since I'm used to my keymouse

I do agree with the earlier poster, that it seems like we're all just gushing love on the creators of keymouse, but to that statement I'd say this : Get a keymouse track, set it up in a way thats optimal for your comfort (like for me it's the chair) and then use it for 2-3 months exclusively. Now, when someone threatens to take it away, i PROMISE you that you won't like that concept one bit, and that once that happens, you'll realize how important it became to how you do your work.. In practice, it's an amazing tool, super helpful, and addicting in how much better it makes life of a person tied to a keyboard all day. I love the hell out of it, and the concept of having to stop using it and get something else is, essentially, a thing of nightmares
Attachments (1)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 51
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
@Liang I'm sorry, I said Mitosis when I meant Dichotomy (which isn't a fair comparison because it's not being produced at the moment). The UHK on the other hand has a trackball would totally work with my use case of light mousing and heavy typing (but disqualifies because I'm looking for something that would also work with an Android device).

Although I 100% agree that having a keyboard and a pointing device in a single HID is one of the most eye-catching features of the KeyMouse (hence the name I guess), that alone doesn't really make it an unique product: there's a $60 ThinkPad Trackpoint keyboard you can buy right now off Amazon if that's the only thing you care about. In my opinion what makes the KeyMouse unique -- and worth its price -- is the combination of all its features. If you remove one, a portion of the target audience might loose interest.

Maybe i'm in a minority. I hope so, because I would hate to see the V2 flop and ZZ no longer making HIDs.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 52
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Ah, thanks. It's too bad dichotomy didn't catch on, and I'm bummed out I missed out on the group buy! :(

Just a quick googling shows the "nipple" to be about 33% slower than a trackpad [1] (which is far worse than a mouse) and a trackball operating at about 66% speed of a mouse and almost twice as error-prone for long-reach tasks [2]. This is maybe overkill, our intuition and anyone who has used these devices tells as that nothing beats the mouse when it comes to precise selection tasks.

All this assumes a traditional interface with menus and buttons of course, which we seem to be moving away from as we move towards touchscreens and people spend less time at desktops. It was a sad day when I sold my blackberry KeyOne with a physical keyboard and moved onto a Samsung lol. The KeyOne was, I'd say, about 50-100% more efficient but I was eating losses at the slowness of the interface.

I think the KeyOne is another example of an underperforming similar to the KeyMouse. The audience just wasn't there, and UI seems to moving away from it, even though there will always be a need for desktop HIDs, just as there will always be a need to compose a long email on a mobile device.



[1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00140130601127885
[2] https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=Ls2-DwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA158&dq=mouse+vs+trackball+speed&ots=iJ9v4W8XUI&sig=4YduWdHo6B7d_WQypsXtykFnFus#v=onepage&q=mouse%20vs%20trackball%20speed&f=false
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 53
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I was tracking (no pun intended) this since it was announced on Kickstarter or wherever that was. I bought both the Alpha and the Track as soon as they were available. With some exceptions, they have been my main office development keyboards since I've received them (60+ hours/week), with a few interruptions from Kinesis and W******s. The Track has been planted on my keyboard tray for some time now (except when it was drinking coffee, which caused me to put it through detox a few times.) For desk work, I found that the Alpha was giving me some strain from constantly moving the right hand keymouse, but I still like the Alpha overall (it just needs more space to work with, I guess). I'd really like an Alpha-sized Track with a few more thumb buttons (I use ~5 layers).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 54
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Try sending a PM to the guy on reddit, the last I heard he had a few units left. But TBF if I owned a KeyMouse I think I'd spend a lot less time on my Dichotomy :D

I get your point, having an actual optical sensor is not a common feature for a keyboard to have. And I can understand how that could be a killer feature for some users. But for the amount of cursor moving that I do, any pointing device will do. Actually I was more interested in the trackball variant, with plans to chair-mount it in the future.

Speaking of the trackball variant, thank you @Pete for the feedback and the picture! much appreciated.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 55
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I often say, I use the mouse more since I got a KeyMouse, but I also use the keyboard more.

Although a non sequitur, that is what it is like. Not only can I use the mouse for things I would not have previously, because it is always under my hands, I can also use the keyboard for things I would not have previously, because it is always under my hands.

For example, I never used to use Ctrl+T to open a new tab on my browser, because I typically had my hand on the mouse anyway. Also, I use the mouse more often when navigating text fields than I ever did before (for movements that take a large amount of clicks, and my mouse in already in the area). There are also many more occasions where this happens.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 56
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Going to start off by saying I love the Keymouse, and I am incredibly excited for the new PCBs (and hearing it's joystick capable).

Mostly chiming in because the uniqueness was questioned earlier, so adding my input.

I am a lazy person, and have been using a computer with only one hand since 2014 when a friend gifted a Logitech G13 to me. I mostly use my computer for gaming and browsing the internet. I programmed the G13 so it would fully replace the keyboard and mouse (Initially an experiment to see how much I could do with it, but since I no longer had to be moving two hands back and forth on a keyboard to type, or reach for a mouse, just do everything with one stationary hand, I loved it and became lazy). The Keymouse Track is a lot better than the G13, and has the added benefit of being able to work on anything a keyboard works on without needing specific software running.

While for me it is something I do so I don't have to be moving my hands around, or for dual boxing in games (if one hand can do everything on a computer, two hands can fully control two computers), I think this product can be immensely useful for people with hand injuries or otherwise unable to use two hands.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 57
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Black for the PCB color and 12,000 DPI mouse sensor.
That is one big improvement.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 58
Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
We have fixed several bugs in the PCB regarding impedance and mouse sensor issues. There is one more bug to solve regarding backlight circuit before we run another batch. Part of the delay is that those helping us solve these issues have other primary jobs and help us on the side after hours and on weekends. Thanks for your patience. Hopefully this week we can solve this backlight issue and order more PCBs.
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 59
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Counting the days until you have the keymouse track available for puchase. :)
  1. more than a month ago
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  3. # 60
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi Heber, do you have a rough time frame for the product release? As in, a few days? A few weeks? Months?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 61
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Derry - even though Heber & co. are efficient once they get things set up and running, it's still best to assume "months" because they're not done qualifying all of the parts and producing an actual working product with these new parts, so there are still lots of things that may go wrong in the process. As you can see, they're already 5-6 months into this current process, and while we can see the light at the end of the tunnel, there's no guarantee that there won't be more hiccups in the pipeline.

Heber - I'd love to see some way to open up the firmware and configuration tools work, so that we're not captive to any future changes or inability to respond to OS changes, etc., but I understand that is complicated considering you don't want to accidentally give IP to another company that can compete with you using your work. Wishing y'all the best ... you've done some great work, and I'd love to see it grow for many years to come.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 62
Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
We have debugged various issues on the PCB. We need to double check everything now. We're planning to order our next small batch in a few days to verify the PCB. See attached photo. We'll let you know when we receive them and test.
Attachments (1)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 63
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Thanks for the update again, Heber. Are those two Mini USB ports? Will you have a Mini to Mini cord to connect the two?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 64
Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yes Jonathan, it will be a Mini B to Mini B for connecting the two (serial connection). It will be for power to the second device, and inter-device communication. We have to do a few tricks to auto-swap TX and RX in the serial connection based on the power source (coming in from Serial connection or USB connection). As far as we can tell, this is working smoothly so far.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 65
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Yes Jonathan, it will be a Mini B to Mini B for connecting the two (serial connection). It will be for power to the second device, and inter-device communication. We have to do a few tricks to auto-swap TX and RX in the serial connection based on the power source (coming in from Serial connection or USB connection). As far as we can tell, this is working smoothly so far.


Why mini usb and not micro usb? It is easier to get micro usb cables.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 66
Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
At least in our experience, Mini B cables have a much more solid connection than Micro USB especially for devices that move. Micro USB just seem problematic in our own experience with other devices. Others may have different preferences, but I personally do not like the micro USB connectors at all.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 67
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Is it possible to get an email when the new KeyMouse is available (including for preorder)? I love my KeyMouse Alpha, and would love to be one of the first to buy the new one when it becomes available.

(I am already subscribed to the mailing list, but I don't think I've ever received an email from it, so am not sure this will be a reliable way to find out. I know I could subscribe to email updates for this forum thread, but based on the previous posts, it seems I'd get a lot of emails that aren't relevant -- I just want to know when this is available.)

Thanks for your great work on KeyMouse. Cheering you on from here!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 68
Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hi JB,
Thanks for your comments and support. We will for sure email everyone that is subscribed when it's ready. We will also post here as well as on our blog, FaceBook, and Twitter. I think we have emailed our user base only a few times since we have been mostly focused on product development (less on marketing).
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 69
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I just want to confirm. As of right now, the plan is to exclude full wireless capabilities on the keymouse alpha/track going forward? Full wireless was always one of the biggest selling points for the keymouse to me. I'm still interested in buying when you resume sales if they are wired, it's just a small disappointment. Thanks!
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 70
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Just want to reiterate something that i feel is important when you make these changes (because i have to take my setup apart today) .. PLEASE either use different switches for the mouse buttons or, make the mouse buttons externally able to change...

I guess, failing that, you could insert metal threads on one half for the screws to screw into, and maybe a rotateable flag to hold the switch in.. Either way, I'm buying your new setup when it comes out, but my job is an insane amount of clicking, and i even game with the thing, so I'm going to burn through switches pretty quickly, as I'm not an average user. That switch is not the easiest thing to get out with the angle the screws are in, and since they screw into plastic they are starting to get too lose (like the ones that hold the two halves together. This is fixable, but it might be good to avoid the problem as not everyone is going to be capable or appreciate that situation. More than happy to pay an extra 20 or whatever to have the metal threads or externally changing about switches.

That said, for others reading this. I've used the hell out of these things and am hopelessly addicted to them. They are still selling switches and such, they are amazing at supporting any needs that i have had, and these are more than worth every penny. Took some time to get used to, but after a few weeks of forcing it, i never ever want to use something else again. I played a game the other day that required my old naga mouse, and yeah, wrist pain, so i can confirm that these things enable me to work crazy hours with no wrist pain, and I'm considerably more efficient with them. Buy the keymouse when it comes out again. ( i suggest the keymouse track, then use brackets to attack them to the chair, works amazing)
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 71
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Nice post, Pete. I also have a long history with RSI, that Kinesis Advantage Pro (two of them at $500 each) largely solved for me -- except for the mouse!

The KeyMouse Alpha was good, but still involved way too much strain (for me) to do much mousing, although it eliminated the movement between keyboard and mouse. I think that the KeyMouse Track is the product that I really needed, but I had to eliminate the outermost keys (I gave up all of the 7 pinky stretch keys on each hand).

Starting up a new hardware business is super hard. Hoping the absolute best for the KeyMouse guys.

I'm also a fan of what the WayTools startup is doing with the Textblade, but they're 6 years in, and have not yet gotten to GA. I have been using a prototype for a few years, and it's a technical marvel. I love to see the ingenuity and hard work that people put into these businesses, but I would also love to see them take off and be able to reward the people behind them! It's so tough these days to succeed when there are (seriously good) $20 mechanical keyboards coming out of China.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 72
Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
After a lot of back and forth communication between the PCB engineer and PCB manufacturing to fix bugs, verify components, availability, etc. a new batch of PCBs is in progress. This is 15 each of 3 PCBs.
1. KeyMouse Main PCB 2.3 - has mouse sensor built in - used for KeyMouse Alpha or mouse devices
2. KeyMouse Main PCB 2.3T - has NO mouse sensor (external for trackball) - could be used for any custom keyboard without mouse or along with Mouse Sensor Module to add mouse or trackball capability
3. Mouse Sensor Module 2.3T - external mouse sensor for trackball (works with Main PCB 2.3T)

Lots of possible device types can be built with these PCBs. I will let you know more when we receive and test them.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 73
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Good to see you are still making progress, and thanks again for letting me purchase that batch of switches and keys. It makes me feel much better waiting when i know i have enough supplies to make my lovely keymouse track survive. You have no idea the level of addiction that comes with getting used to them being mounted properly and securely on my chair after i've mastered using them. Ohh and the pages, i so love the pages, i can do so many things, i'd be pretty upset if i couldn't use them anymore.

Wishing you all the best in your efforts to be able to make them again, even if they aren't any better i'll be buying a set, if you improve them at all, i'll be amazed, such a great product once you learn to use them, and the learning curve was so much quicker than i expected it to be. Hell, i even use it for gaming now, and thats from a guy that HATED track balls prior to getting used to this.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 74
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Do we have any more updates here on how close everything is to being ready for sale on the site? It's been many months now where it has said 1-2 months for the new version.

Thanks
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 75
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I have one more question about the software for the new model you will be releasing. Will the old model of track/alpha use the same software as the new models with updated pcb? If not, is there going to be any support for the original software to keep our keyboards working for many years to come?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 76
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Hello!!! When are the new versions going to be available for purchase?
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 77
Heber Allred
KeyMouse Support
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
I know this sounds redundant, but we just fixed some more hardware bugs on the PCB and will be ordering another sample batch soon. We will post again when we have tested them.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 78
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Measure twice, cut once.
- Also, for some reason I no longer get email notifications for this thread (is that a feature or a bug?), so you get this profound text that I would normally wouldn’t write.
  1. more than a month ago
  2. General
  3. # 79
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
This is great, I never used nor expected to use the Bluetooth feature. I would with a laptop, but I don't carry the mouse to use with a laptop. Hopefully my alpha will keep working fine but I am glad to know that a new model is coming.
  1. 3 weeks ago
  2. General
  3. # 80
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Cool. Never used bluetooth except for a singular try with my android phone (which actually worked, awesome). Will the new alpha version have a number row? that's the one i miss most.
  1. 3 weeks ago
  2. General
  3. # 81
Accepted Answer Pending Moderation
Keep up the good work. Making stuff is hard. I loooove my KeyMouse!!
  1. 5 days ago
  2. General
  3. # 82
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